I see why you like it. Good recommendation.

In New Orleans, the police either ran away or tried to disarm the public.

For home defense a 12 gauge pump shotgun is ideal.  For a handgun, think Glock.  They are relatively inexpensive (usually about $500 new), durable, reliable, simple to operate and spare parts are readily available if needed.  Stick to common calibers like 9mm, 40 S&W or 45 ACP for best selection and availability.  Obtain extra high capacity (11+ rounds)magazines too.  Although available now, they were banned during the Clinton AWB and many gun enthusiasts expect the current administration and their ilk to try to reinstate it or similar legislation.

Thanks! 

84Hog has it right.  Anybody that is still coming at you after hearing that shotgun rack a shell needs to go down now.  Handguns are tough to aim well without training but a shotgun is intuitive.

Folks--

          Although it is very true that shotguns, particularly pump-actions (the most reliable, aside from double barrels and single-shots, which are obviously capacity-deficient), can be very good home defense weapons, I must point out a couple of caveats regarding the advice of  84Hog, deathcube, Wesley Mouch, and many others.

          1)  The "snick-snack --  heart-attack"  sound-signature of a "pump" being racked does have some merit as to instilling fear, but that tends to be seriously mitigated by the simple fact that the sound betrays not only the fact of one's presence, but also one's location, thereby forfeiting the crucial element-of-surprise.

         2)   It enables the intruder to take cover and/or concealment, thereby regaining to him/her self, at least some degree of that vital element-of-surprise.

         A good handgun, while a bit more difficult to master, enables you maintain stealth, and to "neutralize" the intruder immediately you identify him/her as such  "legitimate target".  ANY sort of "CHALLENGE" ("Freeze!", "Drop it!", "On your knees!" OR your pump's "snick-snack"), greatly increases your own danger.  The handgun also greatly reduces the likelihood of your assailant being able to take your primary weapon away from you.  Do you remember, in Mr. Charlie Reese's above article, the advice given him by the "old country lawman"?

         Were I, or some other person with even a small amount of training and/or experience, to be said intruder, you would be enabling me, or him/her, to prepare to take your shotgun away from you, or, even worse, to simply "neutralize" you instantly, by gunfire or other weapon-employment.  As the overwhelming majority of home-invaders who do arm themselves choose to equip themselves with either knives or blunt instruments, often from your own home (with handguns running only third and shotguns and rifles fourth and fifth in "popularity" among felons), you may thereby be giving them a "weapons-upgrade" to use against the remainder of your family and any guests.

         I implore all of you, especially those of you who choose the shotgun option, to read Massad Ayoob's  "IN THE GRAVEST EXTREME"  and his "STRESSFIRE"  series, and to take those lessons to heart.

         Best regards.

 underfire, I agree with all you say EXCEPT not keeping a round in the chamber. I can see it now, "excuse me me. mugger, will you please wait just one second while I rack the slide to load my weapon". The 1911 you mention was designed to be carried cocked and locked. New striker fired pistols like the XD's are perfectly safe to carry with a loaded chamber. I carry every day, either my 1911 or the smaller XD sub compact. Newer revolvers have a hammer block safety and will not fire unless the trigger is pulled.

I carry a Kimber 1911 and a North American Arms .32acp Guardian. Both are kept with a round in the chamber at all times. The 1911 with the hammer back and the thumb safety engaged. When TSHTF, you will not have time to be loading a round in the chamber. And what if, while loading the chamber, in the grip of panic, you blow it and fail to get a good load? Then what?

If you are so unsure of yourself and your weapon handling, maybe you should not own a gun at all.

I do not carry my 1911, but rather keep it hidden in my home.  I leave the chamber unloaded as an additional measure of safety should someone unintended come across it, or my shotgun, such as a child.  As of yet I don't feel the need to carry a handgun, although I will often "carry" a rifle in my pickup, also with the chamber empty.

When I think of TSHTF, I think of the upcoming breakdown of society.  I cannot imagine what it would be like to live in a place where I felt the need to arm myself with a pair of cocked and loaded firearms to leave the house, although I'm sure there are places where that's the case already.

BTW, if you're thinking home defense, don't forget to keep a good dog or two.

Grumley--

         Speaking of bartering, I agree that ammunition would be a very desirable commodity.  However, add to that, in order of traditional popularity:1)  toilet-paper

                                   2)  liquor

                                   3)  cigarettes & tobacco

                                   4)  gasoline/diesel/propane

                                   5)  condoms

         For some reason, "luxury" items like t.p. are always in demand in SHTF situations, particularly prolonged ones.

I better get over to BJ's and buy three 50 roll packages of TP, and the economy size condom package.

JimQ--

         Alwasys a good "investment", T.P..   And it ain't as if you're going to stop using it anyway, right?

Daniel--

         If we were to wind up with a SHTF situation, bad-enough as that would be, just suppose, for a second or two, it were to develop into a "TEOTWAWKI" situation.  Jim (and others) may want/need their "little swimmers" for appropriate re-population efforts, as onerous and dreaded a task as that would be, but someone would have to do "it".  Diapers ain't all that disastrous.

Keep enough to give some away as well. Your neighbors may not be thinking ahead, and they may come to your defense to fend off others.

Phone books make an acceptable substitute for TP.

dholsop--

         I think it more likely that we would have to do the "fending-off" for the neighbors, but you're right, such gifts, if the "giftee" is appreciative, are good investments, as well as being properly charitable.

         The phonebook-paper idea might well be an acceptable substitute to some people (like those from the former Soviet Union, at many times) but it's sure not my idea of desirable.  I'm stocked-up on real t.p., and it would be a REAL long time before I'd have to consider ersatz solutions to the problem.  But, you're right, again, that it's a better substitute  than a lot of other possible measures.

         Best regards.

Go live in Japan.

Well traffic deaths in 2008 for the US, 37,313. Lowest since 1961. Maybe we should ban cars? NOT!

  Anon.--  

          +1 Bheithir !!   But driving is a luxury; self-defense is a natural right.

         In Japan, there many cultural, social and legal factors affecting the crime rates, not the least of which are arrest and detention at the discretion of the police and prosecutors, and the fact that the conviction rate for almost any offense is damn-near 100%.  Also note that Japanese prisons are not quite as "nice" as ours.

           In the U.S., gun-deaths, and violent crimes in general, are at the lowest they've been since the early 60s. 

         You should read:     More Guns, Less Crime  by John R. Lott, Jr.  (Regnery, Wash., D.C.)

                                         The Bias Against Guns,  Ibid.

         Also read the various articles by Prof. Gary Kleck  (U. FL);  most are available by simply "Google-ing" his name.

         The F.B.I.  Uniform Crime Reports, (published annually) would also tend to dis-abuse you of erroneous notions regarding our homicide rates. Perhaps you get your "statistics" from left-wing and/or anti-gun-rights websites?  As for the rest of the world, have you ever been to, or read about homicide rates and methods/weapons in Brazil, particularly Rio and Sao Paulo?  How about in China? (As if you could actually get accurate statistics from them)  What about Sudan?  Ethiopia, Somalia, Sierra Leone, Liberia, Uganda and Zimbabwe?   Malaysia, Indonesia and the Phillipines, and many, many more?  Or do you believe that only gun homicides committed by lone criminals count?  How about banning knives and blunt instruments?  What about gangs and jihadis?  The United States is one of the very few countries which both accurately compiles AND RELEASES such statistics.

         Do you believe that, If we were able to truly remove ALL guns from our society, that would be preferable?  If so, you believe that the old and the weak should be at the mercy of the young and the strong, and the lone man at the mercy of the gang.  I would much rather see every law-abiding adult citizen go armed at all times, everywhere.  Very quickly we would have extremely little violent crime and would lower our prison costs immensely.

         What needs to be banned and removed forever from society are EVIL PEOPLE, NOT THE TOOLS OF SELF-DEFENSE.

         Best regards and good reading.

The comment about the lack of firearms deaths in Japan is now and has long been a statistic touted by the anti-self defense crowd.  It is typical smoke and mirrors in that it is true but is used to support a lie.  True ,the Japanese do not kill each other with firearms.  However if you include the statistics for knives and swords used in Japan you will see a totally different picture.  Adds up to a lie anyway you slice it.

Gun control helps criminals and cowards, not the law abiding.  Criminals have a safer work environment and the cowards can hide their true selves under color of law.

Perfect example was yesterday here at Fort Hood.  One coward/nutjob with firearms killed 13 combat trained soldiers because the Army requires that they be disarmed to be on Post.  Only a fool would not have noticed that most if not all American mass murders have been in gun free safe havens.  Columbine, the Twin Towers, VA Tech, and the list goes on. 

You might also ask yourself why violent crime is higher in anti-gun states and cities.  I suspect you will not.

James Ralston

CSM, US ARMY (ret)

(and yes, I am a combat Vet)

A big  +1, CSM Ralston.

Hey now! I am a lifetime member of the NRA. Yet you will not find a sticker on the back window of my pick-em-up-truck. I prefer not to advertise the fact that I may be packin a heater (ALWAYS!).

Stuck,

I'd suggest handling several handguns at a gun shop and going with the one that feels good in your hand, like an old friend.  As I stated before, I use a model 1911 45 acp with 230 grain hollowpoints.  A handgun has its place but is very difficult to shoot accurately.  The most fearsome weapon of all time for close range is the 12 guage shotgun.  I don't think I'd personally consider a rifle for home defence unless I wanted to get in another shot as they're tearing down the driveway.

For home protection, a pump action shotgun with relatively short barrel is the right answer.  The sound of a shotgun being pumped is a real attention grabber for someone entering the house.  A shotgun loaded with buckshot holds 100% assured stopping power and finally, unlike a pistol, the shot will not carry far enough to injure innocents in other parts of the house or next door.

Thanks for the good advice guys.

I like the idea of a pump action shotgun for real "100$ assured stopping power" and also the "attention grabber" aspect.  :)

I have large hands .. could palm a basketball in 7th grade .. so seeing what "feels good in your hand" makes a lot of sense.

Zara, don't get too excited. There is no correlation between size of hands and other anatomical man parts. Too much info ... right?

I recommend you to make a loan and buy a dozen of weapons.

I'll ring at your door when you'll be ready.

Goldie, if you come to my door, YOU may be my first casualty .... unless you are wearing this shirt;

As an avid shooter of all type firearms I have found the Taurus 24/7 in .45 acp to be an excellent carry weapon. High capacity mag, light weight, fits hand very well, and is quite reasonable.

I prefer a 12ga. with 00 buck  located near most  entrance ways.

I also believe in training children in the care, use, and safety of firearms.

Daniel--

         So, should I take it that ALL semi-autos are now MORE reliable with ALL types of ammo  (even with different loads and lengths of shells), under ALL conditions, than a good pump? 

         As just one example of even a very-good quality semi-auto 12 ga. "problem",  I once bought a beautiful-looking, Howa-manufactured, "S&W"- labeled, 12 ga. semi (I think the design itself was actually a Mossberg 1100) from a guy for $35. !! (this was in about 1997).  He said that he'd bought it from a "kid" who was the original owner, and that it was "broken".   He also gave me a couple of boxes of the ammo he had been using, one of 2 3/4" #7-shot loads, and one of 3" also #7s , each box about half-full. When I later tested it, I found that it would function only reasonably well with 2 3/4" shells, but with the 3" shells it would fire only the first round (and that, only sometimes) and invariably then have a "stove-pipe" ejection malfunction.  I detail-stripped it and cleaned out a lot of congealed lubricant, grit and other crud, including carbon & powder-residue from the gas-system area.  When I re-assembled it, as I was wiping my oily fingerprints off the barrel, I happened to notice that the barrel was clearly marked "2 3/4" shells ONLY".    "GEE-WHIZ, Batman!"    Rather unsurprisingly, it subsequently functioned very well, but sometimes, particularly with "low-base (brass)" target loads, would not fully cycle.  A good gun, but NOT one I would wish to "Bet My Life On".

         For those  potential "In The Gravest Extreme" situations, I think I'll stay with a good, twin action-bar pump, even though I'm not an official card-carrying Redneck, and can only claim that title (proudly, I might add) by association.

         I don't really mean to chide you, in particular, but those of us who are experienced shooters, would do well to give advice, especially to the less well-versed or to inexperienced shooters, ONLY with great care and caution, as their reliance on such advice could really turn out to be a life-and-death matter.

         Best regards.

 S & W 5 shot .38 special pocket revolver...that's enough

Anon.--

         That depends on what you load it with.   The typical .38 Special caliber's round-nose lead bullets are notoriously poor "man-stoppers", even at point-blank range.  They seem to zip in and slip out without even losing much velocity, unless they hit bone.  Good penetration without a substantial "energy-dump" may not "stop" very well, unless you can reliably hit the brain, medulla oblongatta, or heart -- and many, many folks can't, even if you or I can.  For improving one's odds in a defensive action with any ,38 Spl. revolver, one should, IMO, ALWAYS use one of the Premium +P hollowpoint loads, which will open-up pretty well, even from a 2" or 3" barrel, if both shooter and revolver can handle the +P's pressures and recoil.  Some folks, particularly new shooters without some combat-style training, may lose or diminish control of the smallish piece, by a poor "hold" on the grips, for example

         If I have to shoot a guy, I want him to STOP what he's trying to do to me RIGHT DAMN NOW!  It won't do me much good, no matter how many times I hit him, if he succeeds in killing me and then bleeds to death 5 minutes later..

         I'm not knocking your choice & recommendation:  my wife wears a S & W 638 as a principal weapon, and I frequently use one as a back-up piece.  I just think we need to keep in mind that an awful lot of folks reading this forum are not experienced "gun People"

Great info.

Thanks.

StuckINJ--

         You're welcome.  You should think about moving to America.  Even your NEW Governor is not exactly gun-rights friendly; just before the election I listened to him talking in a TV news interview about needing to keep NJ's  gun laws as they are in order to keep criminals from getting guns, as if any laws could keep criminals un-armed.  It's already a Federal crime for a felon to even touch a gun or so much as a single cartridge, much less carry one.  He should read what Thomas Jefferson said about depriving the law-abiding of arms encouraging criminal attacks.  I am quite aware of the endless harassment of law-abiding gun owners and attempting-to-be law-abiding gun owners in the Socialist Peoples Republic of New Jersey.  When I travel through NJ I refuse to spend a cent on anything: I won't even buy gas or use a toll-road, much less have a meal or use a motel.  The only time I've even stopped a car in NJ (aside from traffic jams) in the last twenty-five years was to attend an old friend's funeral.

         Don't forget to take a look at the educational articles on TheBoxOTruth.com .

         Good Luck.

I agree mostly with fenian, the stainless revolver for a new comer is a good choice. http://snipurl.com/t31tb Carried and shot this one for years. Probably put 2000+ rounds through it. Still need to train though. Marksmanship and reloading, using speed loaders. Safariland are my preferred brand. Speed draw isn’t as important in the home, but for carried weapon is essential. Problem is with this is most ranges won’t let you “quick draw.” Practice dry firing at home and then actual shooting on the range. Another “survival” plus for this rig, is if you get half moon clips, you can shoot 9mm and .380 in it. Not the greatest idea, but as I said for “survival” reasons it’s cool to be able to shoot different calibers. I’ve moved to the Glock 27 for concealed carry, after also carrying the Berretta 92 FS for years in an official capacity. (Don’t much care for it.)  

My preferred shotgun is the Remington 870 “Pump” gun with 20” barrel and magazine extender. For in the home I would go with #4 steel buck shot, for over penetration issues. Still will get some, but not like 00 or 0 shot. You must at least point in the direction while sighting down the barrel, not necessarily aiming but not off the hip either. I have shot accurately with just a front sight “bb” and no rear sight with this gun up to 40 yards using 00 lead Buck and using this technique. Shot patterns didn’t get any better with careful aiming. Let me tell you the tissue damage done by two round of at close less than 10 yards is horrendous.

If you are not a large person, stay with the wooden stock or get a good recoil compensator system for it. I am pretty big (240 lbs) and if I’m room clearing and I pop five or six rounds through it real quick, I usually have head gear and safety glasses on the floor J when I’m done. This wearing full body armor with front plate. LOTS of recoil when shot like this. This was using lightened synthetic stocks and forend. Felt recoil became uncomfortable after a day on the range. Went back to wood with mercury filled recoil compensator in the stock and the next shoot day was much easier.

Hey, Fen .. I have checked out BoxOTruth ... nice site ... I particularly like the Forums section ... found this quote which I have not seen before .. "No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country". -- George S. Patton  Helluva quote.

My parents are both in their 80's which is why I'm stuck in NJ. It's not right to leave them alone. But when they are no longer on this earth ...... I'm OUTTA HERE!!

I'm moving to the South. (I promise you, I am not a typical East coast liberal.  However, I do use the F-word liberally.) 

I'm favoring South Carolina because I want to be near the ocean, don't like extreme heat/humidity like FL, and also want to enjoy the mountains in the western part of the state.

I also like Texas. Don't know much about Texas from a first hand perspective though.  Basic training in Lackland.  Spent a week in both Dallas and Houston, and that's it.  I know there is so much more.  What I like about Texas is my PERCEPTION of the spirit of the people that live there. A fairly independent folk, I think.  Aren't there some (or, many?) that strive to for independence? Right or wrong ... gotta love the spirit behind that.  Not sure if I can ever get into country music though.

Patton is the greatest movie ever made. I could watch it 10 times in a row.

Stuck--

         Thanks for the reply.  The G.S. Patton quote is featured in the movie "Patton", as JimQ correctly notes, and is from an actual address to his troops. (And it is reliably reported that he actually did stand in the open and empty his pistol firing at strafing German aircraft.  However, he used his Colt General Officers' Model 1903 .32ACP rather than the M1911 .45ACP depicted in the film.)  If you like that, try this:  I have read - I can"t recall where - that he and Douglas MacArthur once "bumped into" each other during WW I in France.  The story goes that they were each observing American troops assaulting a German position and were both calmly (!!!) standing, fully exposed, atop the rim of a shell-crater, with "Heine" bullets doing the "crack" bit past their ears.  Patton later recounts that he would have preferred to make his observations from a slightly less-exposed position, such as in standing, at least partially, inside the rim of the crater, but that he wasn't about to budge with "that crazy damn Doug MacArthur watching".  According to the tale, MacArthur later made the same comment, vis-a-vis Patton watching him.

         I know what you mean about having to wait to move.  FL is pretty OK in terms of gun-rights, income-tax, etc., but you're right about the hot, humid climate - we hate it, and there's not much convenient, cheap, good hunting here in South-FL, except for wild hogs.  My wife's mother is 86.  After she passes, we plan on moving to North Carolina, somewhere in the Wilksboro area (My daughter & granddaughter live in the Roanoke, VA area, so we'd like to be within a couple of hours of them, but in a state that has less chance of going "Progressive" than VA.  BTW, most of the Conservatives and Libertarians that I know don't have any real problem with "Classical" Liberals, but we DO have serious problems accepting the new "IL-Liberal"-Liberals and Progressives, whom we view as being pretty extreme "Statists" and Socialists.

         Basic at Lackland means "Wing-Wiper", yes?  Don't get insulted, now.  I'm an ex-"Squid" from a family of "Jarheads" (there are no EX-Jarheads), so I'm used to the back-and-forth teasing routine.  'Way back when I was "in", when we still had actual "service-numbers" (as opposed to SS#s), the majority of Petty Officers (i.e.: E4 & above) had to qualify with the M1911, so that we could be assigned to Shore Patrol duty, on occasion.  Doesn't the Air Force do anything like that?    You're right; Texans, in general, do have a great independent spirit, as you observed, but, if you don't like the heat, that leaves out a goodly part of the state, especially anywhere near the quite humid coast.  As for me, I like mountains and real seasons and, if I were going to move that far west, I'd pick the White Mountains of AZ, somewhere southeast of Show Low (although an awful lot of Liberals/Progressives have moved to AZ over the last thirty years or so, and changed the state's politics significantly).

         Country music is a pretty broad genre, with so many sub-genres, that you can probably find some area of it to like, or at least get used-to.  Much of it is based on Irish and Scottish folk-music (Bluegrass is a prime example,with the fiddle taking the pipe or whistle line.).  So also with the "Western"  genre ( e.g.: "The Streets of Laredo" = "The Bard of Armagh").  Or, how about "Country-Rock" as in Lynrd Skynrd?

         Anyway, I was glad to read your comments.

         Best regards.

Well, I'm just gonna have to rent Pattton from Netflicks this weekend.

Wing-wiper, eh?  LOL  No offense taken.  Basic training was pretty easy for sure. Except the marching.  I'm 6'7" .. the guy in front of me was considerably shorter .. hence I was always out of step and got reamed for it on more than one occasion.  They once called off a 5 mile march because the weather was too hot. I'm not shittin' ya either. lol  I joined the AF becuase I've loved airplanes ever since I could remember and wanted to be part of that. Wasn't a pilot .. enlisted .. worked on awesome C5's, incredible C130 Hercules, and the beautiful C135 Stratolifter ... MAC bases ... lots of fun.

Yeah .. forgot about country rock ... most acceptable.

Back to the Fort Hood post ... gotta put some Islamo-loving pricks in their place ...

         Note that soldiers are not allowed to carry weapons on-base, except during a exercise.  Ah, the supreme joy of total safety in the "gun-free" (unarmed-victim) zones of our country.  IIRC, only the guard-dog handlers were allowed to carry loaded weapons on base -- and that's for their own protection if the dog goes "cuckoo".

Stuck--

         Check out my latest post at the bottom of this thread RE: Reduced Recoil-High Energy 12 ga. loads, if you are considering the 12 ga. pump shotgun option.

JimQ--

         I really like "Patton" too.

         If you are still considering using the 12 ga. pump shotgun option for home defense, check out my latest post at the bottom of this thread RE:  "High Energy-Reduced Recoil"  12 ga. buckshot and slug loads.

My wife is worried I'll shoot myself by accident.

BWAHAHAHAHA! You'll shoot your eye out! You'll shoot your eye out!

You'll shoot your eye out kid!

Jim--

         Are you kidding or are you being serious?

cbxer55--

         I think that your quote achieves precisely the right balance of humor, irony and gentle mockery.

Surely you remember the witches and the "Santa" in the movie Christmas Story?

Thats from the scene where Ralphie and his brother are at the store to tell santa what they want for christmas.

Pretty funny, IMHO

         Exactly the quote I was referring to, but I remember the "witches" as being "Santa's Helpers".  I also have always thought it particularly funny, because my grandmother, who had had only daughters, used to say it to me at every opportunity.  When I was 10, my uncle, another Jarhead, gave me a Daisy BB-rifle, and, yes, it was a Christmas gift --  although no witches were involved in the transaction, to the best of my recollection  -- but I don't recall if it was an actual "Red Ryder".  And, no, he did not allow me to call it a BB-"gun", because "guns" are HUGE rifles, fired from "Squid-barges" by Navy "pansies" or, ashore, by teams of MARINE  "cannon-cockers" (The word "MARINE" was always spoken just slightly louder and with a bit more emphasis than lesser words -- kind of like the way preachers emphasize the word "GOD")  I guess the "Army-pukes" had to do without and the Air Force wasn't a REAL military organization, anyway. --at least according to the then-prevailing Jarhead wisdom..  My mother, who had been indoctrinated while married to my Jarhead father, finally got grandma to stop pestering me with those warnings by calmly making the observations that  A)  "He's a BOY mom!!  B)  "His UNCLE taught him how to use it.",  and my personal favorite, although not necessarily always true,  C)  "If he was dumb enough to let that happen to himself, it would have happened by now."  Little did she know!

I only refer to them as witches because, #1 they are nagging poor little Ralphie. #2 they sound like witches. #3 if I was in his shoes, that is what I would think of them. Santa got himself some pretty goth helpers there.

And geez, the way that santa did the ho-ho-ho thing, would scare any kid to death.

Pretty scary experience for Ralphie and his brother.

And he did in fact shoot his eye out! 8>)

Busted his spectacles anyhow.

Yeah they're witches.

cbexer55--

         I don't know in what decade you were in grammar school, but I can assure you that "Christmas Story" is an incredibly accurate "slice of life" from the 50's.  Every time I watch it I can SMELL the aroma of heavy, wet wool clothes, with a hint of mothballs;  the mild stink of bi-gender pre-pubescent sweat in over-heated classrooms, mixed with eau de wet-rubber- galoshes; heated old varnish & leaded paint, and old (even then) oak floors and oak-and-wrought-iron desks.  It may seem "corney" ( a word then much in use) but I love it!

         And yes, back in that more innocent time, going to talk to Santa was a bit scary, with or without "witchy" wenches attending him.

          He did not "shoot his eye out"---his half-inch-thick "safety" glasses saved him.  Oh!-- Just saw your line about the "specs".  Yeah, you're right about the witchy attendants.

I am 48, born in July 1961. And yes, my parents did take me to see Santa in my early years. Vaguely remember that. Pitman NJ it was. A Christmas parade every year, with Santa on his "sleigh".

I remember the smell of mothballs, and wet galashes (wore them myself for some years). Although I remember the past, I have no desire to re-visit it anytime soon. Like Ralphie, I wore pretty thick glasses, and have no desire to relive the "criticisms" of the other kids of the era (thank god for contact lens!).

Anyways, we'll all get to see 24 hours of Christmas Story soon enough. ENJOY! 8>)

I agree mostly with fenian, the stainless revolver for a new comer is a good choice. http://snipurl.com/t31tb Carried and shot this one for years. Probably put 2000+ rounds through it. Still need to train though. Marksmanship and reloading, using speed loaders. Safariland are my preferred brand. Speed draw isn’t as important in the home, but for carried weapon is essential. Problem is with this is most ranges won’t let you “quick draw.” Practice dry firing at home and then actual shooting on the range. Another “survival” plus for this rig, is if you get half moon clips, you can shoot 9mm and .380 in it. Not the greatest idea, but as I said for “survival” reasons it’s cool to be able to shoot different calibers. I’ve moved to the Glock 27 for concealed carry, after also carrying the Berretta 92 FS for years in an official capacity. (Don’t much care for it.)  

My preferred shotgun is the Remington 870 “Pump” gun with 20” barrel and magazine extender. For in the home I would go with #4 steel buck shot, for over penetration issues. Still will get some, but not like 00 or 0 shot. You must at least point in the direction while sighting down the barrel, not necessarily aiming but not off the hip either. I have shot accurately with just a front sight “bb” and no rear sight with this gun up to 40 yards using 00 lead Buck and using this technique. Shot patterns didn’t get any better with careful aiming. Let me tell you the tissue damage done by two round of at close less than 10 yards is horrendous.

If you are not a large person, stay with the wooden stock or get a good recoil compensator system for it. I am pretty big (240 lbs) and if I’m room clearing and I pop five or six rounds through it real quick, I usually have head gear and safety glasses on the floor J when I’m done. This wearing full body armor with front plate. LOTS of recoil when shot like this. This was using lightened synthetic stocks and forend. Felt recoil became uncomfortable after a day on the range. Went back to wood with mercury filled recoil compensator in the stock and the next shoot day was much easier.

cbxer55--

         I agree with almost everything that you said, 

However, consider that both JimQ and StuckINJ  are apparently newcomers to the wonderful world of handguns and that StuckINJ lives in a very restrictive "may-issue" (as in: only if you have some political influence or are a celebrity--and probably only if you are a Democrat, too) state.  What you or I may find simple and easy about auto-loaders may be a difficult and intimidating, confidence-sapping proposition for the un-initiated.

The only other item I might take issue with is the power of your 700-lumen (is that a typo?) Olight.  Try this as an exercise: the next time that you get up at 0-dark-thirty to pee,  don't turn on a room light; take your light-cannon with you and turn it on in the dark hallway.  You may discover what "reflective flash-back" is and not like it much.  After making sure that you didn't set the wallpaper on fire, and also didn't blind the 737 pilots on a six-mile-final to your local airport, you may decide to reserve the light-cannon for outdoor use, and get an 80 to 100 lumen light for indoor use.  'Just thinkin'.

I love my M1911 Colts too. For the past thirty-eight years.

Best regards.

I am well aware of how it is in NJ. It is the reason my parents abondoned that "great" state in 1976. I feel for anyone who resides there.

As for the Olight M30 putting out 700 lumens, that is not a typo. Here is a link to a thread on the light at CandlePowerForums. The light is a variable output LED flashlight. It has a low mode of 8 lumens, great for walking around the house at night without waking anyone up. A medium output of 120 lumens, just about a perfect match for any Surefire out there, except it last for almost 10 hours at medium level. And it has a high of 700 lumens, as you say, great for burning down BAD wallpaper! 8>)

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=231491

It is a great flashlight, that has a clip, so I carry it clipped to my left pocket, opposite a VERY LARGE Cold Steel Espada, with 5.5 blade, clipped to my right front pocket. I carry two spare magas for my Kimber in a special ankle holster. http://magills.com/pgroup_descrip/307_Ankle+Holsters/6785_Ankle+Magazine+Pouch/?return=%3ftpl%3Dindex%26category_id%3D307%26_Ankle%2BHolsters%2F

Oh yeah, I also have an original condition steel Colt Series 70 Combat Commander. Nice gun, but does not shoot the same tight pattern as the Kimber. Different intentions for final use I suppose. The Colt is designed to be dropped in mud and still fire, so it is LOOSE. You can wiggle that slide around pretty good anyday of the week. The Kimber is tight as a bank vault, but I would not desire to find out how it functions when really dirty. The Colt also tosses out them empties very erratically, including down the front of your shirt if you wear a button down. The Kimber just piles them up neat as you please.

But I like em both anyways.

Oh yeah II. The best holster in the world for carrying concealed. It aint pretty, but dang it all, I just love a holster where I can forget I am even carrying a heavy old "Slab-Sides"! :-) http://www.crossbreedholsters.com/

Oh yeah III. I also have a "pocket Rocket". The North American Arms Guardian .32acp. In reality, since you have it in your pocket, with your hands on it in certain situations, that is the fastest way to access a handgun in an emergency. No lifting of shirt or jacket, no reaching around your waist. Just take your hand out of your pocket with the rocket already gripped. Most times, since Oklahoma does not impose a limit on how many guns you can carry, I carry both. Also Oklahoma does not require the gun your carry be tied to the permit, nor does the gun have to even be registered. And Open Carry is being debated in this state this year and probably next, looking forward to that.

cbxer55--

         Thanks for the reply and also for the great links.  I'm thinking about getting the Olight.  I like those Crossbreed holsters, too.  I remember a rather strong light being used to great effect in Tom Clancy's "Debt of Honor" -- I think you'd enjoy it.

         I agree that the Kimbers are superb pistols and more accurate than the "issue" Colt Gov. Mdl..  As you are probably aware, Browning deliberately designed the M1911 to be "loose" for exactly the reasons you describe.  My Mk. IV Series '70 Gov. Mdl. .45  was loose when I bought it (in '75 IIRC), and a bit looser now, after 4,000+ rounds and almost 30 years of daily carry, plus 11 years of club-level competition (IPSC-style).  The only mods I had done to it were: "throating & polishing"  the feed-ramp/chamber-mouth, lowering the ejection port, beveling the mag-well, installing a Commander hammer, "Novak"-type sights, and a really smooth, 3-lb. trigger-job, all done when the pistol was about 2-300 rounds "old".  It will still shoot to 3"-to-4" at 10 yds., rapid-fire (IPSC-style, not NRA target-style), if I do my part (61 year-old eyes and all) and it will feed empty cases, too.  And that's with the original Colt barrel and collet-bushing.  That's as good as I can imagine ever needing for defense, and the only malfunctions have been from dead primers, damaged/very worn mags/mag-springs and weakened/worn-out recoil springs, excepting 4 or 5 which may have been my fault ("limp-wrist/elbow" type).  Since I started using ONLY Kimber and Wilson Combat-Elite 8-round magazines, I have had NO malfunctions whatsoever.

         It is only in the last couple of years that I have transitioned to carrying a Glock 36 instead of the Colt, in deference to my changing body (arthritis, belly, etc.).  I normally have a S&W 638 (Airweight) in a left-hand pocket holster, also.  I used to carry a PPK as a back-up, but the 638 is discernibly lighter.

         We have the same CCW deal here in SE FL Re: a wide latitude of what and how many guns we can carry concealed and are also permitted to carry knives and most other small weapons as well.  Open carry is only allowed here in the less populated areas, as in while fishing, hunting, etc. (lots of Eastern Diamondbacks, Cottonmouths, 'gators and wild hogs).  For those activities i carry a Ruger GP 100 .357 w/ 2 shot-loads followed by 4 solids in the cylinder.  This is no joke: I've shot 2 Diamondbacks over the years and avoided many more.  I had a close-quarters disagreement with a 'gator once, while fishing a remote pond -- no shooting involved as there was a nice pine tree close at hand.  It's amazing how many years can instantly drop-away with a good surge of adrenaline.  I hadn't climbed a tree since I was about 14, but I guess it's like the old adage about "riding a bike"; your body never forgets.  And yes, getting back down was a lot harder than going up, or at least so it seemed.

         Best regards.

cbxer55--

         I had another thought!  (Amazing, as I usually only get one per day.)

         My Series 70 kicks out virtually all the cases to the right and rear, over my right shoulder.  The only times I've had them hit my hat-brim and go down my shirt have been when shooting reloads and a wimpy one still cycles the pistol.  I had a range acquaintance whose Series 70 routinely flipped them down his shirt-front.  I suggested that he have a competition ejector installed, which he did.  Now, the cases leave his gun farther right and rear, and with definite "Authority"  More compact case landing-zone, too.

I have been told that the ejector just needs to be adjusted. I have not bothered to pursue that as of yet because I bought the Kimber to replace the Commander (rusts to dang easily) as a carry gun. So I do not shoot the Colt very much these days. As of this moment it is in the exact same configuration as when my father bought it in the 70s, factory stock.

I will look into getting it adjusted, but do not want to be replacing parts on it, desire to keep it factory stock for now, including the stocks.

Did you order that Olight M30 yet? It is a great light, if just a little long. But I have gotten used to having a light clipped to my left pocket since, Oh, about the late 90s. There is nothing more fun than being able to light up the neighborhood with a flashlight you can carry in your pocket. And people constantly ask me where they can get one.

Order it from here, he has the best price. http://www.batteryjunction.com/olight-m30-triton.html

Order this to go along with it. http://www.batteryjunction.com/wf139-18500-combo.html

The light can be carried with four different battery configurations. Three CR123s or two 18500s in the short length. Four CR123s or two 18650s in the long length. The long length offers about twenty minutes more runtime than the short. I prefer the short for carrying, and do not really over-use the 700 lumen setting, the 120 medium setting is a good all around setting that will get 10 hours out of the batterys. The rechargables are the way to go, to avoid throwing money away on lots of CR123 primary cells.

When I got the rechargable 18500s I had a problem with one of the batterys, which I was able to correct. Here is a thread on that should the same occur to you. http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=239471

You can get 100 primarys for $115 here. http://www.batteryjunction.com/rayovac-cr123a-100-box.html

cbxer55--

         Thanks for the additional links and info.  I was checking around the 'net this morning for the M30 and did find batteryjunction and you're right, it's the best price I found.  I hadn't yet considered all the ins-and-outs of battery choices and configurations, but your advice seems sound, so, thanks again.  I'm afraid that the new light/battery project will have to be on "hold" for a (short, I hope) time while my checkbook is "recharging".  BTW, I have never seen such an extensive review of a light before, as I found with your link to candlepowerforums.  What a great site!

         Since it was your dad's pistol, I can understand why you would prefer to keep it "as-is".

         Gotta go-- the wife just called-- some idiot just rear-ended her car, on her way home from work.  She says she's OK, but the cops are telling her it isn't drivable--we shall see.

Thats true, and part of the thinking that went into buying such a high-powered light, that is small enough to keep on you all the time. Anyone who carries a gun should carry a flashlight and a knife as well. Both should be carried on the opposite side as the gun. Light for dark places, knife in case some BG gets the drop on you  and gets your gun before you do. You may just be able to slash up his arm, rendering it useless for pulling a trigger.

In addition to the gun and light, I carry this 5.5 bladed folding knife, from Cold Steel. In addition to its size, CS has a way with knives, that they make a really loud CLACK! when opened. About as scary as the racking of a 1911 slide IMHO. http://www.thebladeshop.com/Cold_Steel_Espada_Large_Polished_G10_Handle_Plai_p/62nl.htm

The CDP II is the Kimber version of the Commander, with a 4.0 barrel. Whereas a Colt Combat Commander has a 4.25 barrel. The CDP II shoots much better than the Colt, but as I stated earlier, I understand why the Colt is loose. But, unless I am facing a situation where dropping it in the mud is inevitable, the Colt stays at home. It'll work good enough for a bad guy in the house, along with the light.

I have that one in my book collection, bought it when it first came out. I also enjoy reading Massad's articles and columns in American Handgunner magazine, the only one I pay for. Since I am a lifetime member of the NRA, I do get their American Rifleman as well. But it cannot hold a candle to American Handgunner for their writers, and excellent photos.

Seroiusly.

This is a decision that you will make that will effect the lives of many, including your's.

You must be absolutely sure that pulling that trigger is going to save your live from being taken by a criminal.

When the brown al gore material (shit) hits the fan, im not going to have think it through in order to pull the trigger of my gun against a criminal. There isnt going to be a cop or judge or any semblence of order to speak of when we have to pull the guns out.  Depending on the length of this catastrophe and the amount of carnage and death everyone  here says might happen will determine if there are investigations if one had " the right" to kill in self defence.

Sounds like a perfect combo. You can get drunk and then go out and shoot some cows.

I think I'm going to post something today. My commute has gone from 2 hours a day to 3 hours and I'm starting to get pissed off. Not good for my view of unions.

Tony D--

        It is a clear, self-evident fact that you NEED BOTH.  If you want, I can explain to your wife about the necessity of making your own "liquid bread".  Is she aware that the Pilgrims were really on their way to Virginia, but when they ran out of beer (considered a "necessary food"), they were FORCED to put-in on the Mass. coast to brew more?

I would open up all the replies. Then Cut and Paste the whole shebang onto a Word document. You should be able to Cut and Paste the entirety with one shot. Then print. Cannot think of any other way myself.

Edit: I just tried it and it works fine.

Thank you.

Done.  Very good and simple solution.

Jeez ... I am embarassed that I didn't figure this out on my own.

If anyone wants to call me a DUMBASS, now is the time to do it ... no argument from me.

Its to be expected from you Yankees. 8>)

Stuck--- Since there will be no argument......  just kidding.

?????

Swash--

         I don't know.  As you observe, it would always be a highly subjective choice.  If you're talking about only current production models, it may well be the Kimber you mentioned.    I'm mainly an auto-loader guy, but the smoothest, most precisely made production-line handgun that I've ever seen and used, was an old K-frame S&W -- a Model 15 (the Model 10, but with target sights) with perfect bluing, and wonderful balance.  Everything about it, from fit & finish, through trigger-pull, to accuracy was exceptional.  I bought it on the spot (about 1979, IIRC).  A few years later, I gave it to my (then) wife.  When we later divorced, she wouldn't even let me BUY it back.  She later told me, just to "rub it in", I'm sure, that she sold it cheap, to a friend of hers, a guy who thought his Bryco was the height of handgun technology and beauty.  "Casting Pearls Before Swine" is the only polite phrase I can think of  to describe it.

Probably H&K or SIG as far as pistols go. Revolvers are another story!

Thanks for your thoughts, fenian and anonymous.

 S & W 5 shot .38 revolver. That's enough

RockinB--

         I couldn't agree with you more, Gunny.  Quite a "Salad Bar" I see on your profile page.  My aged eyes can't identify your decorations and awards from the photo, but I would hazard a guess that you've "Been to see the Elephant", which tends to give more weight to your arguments/opinions, at least to an old HM3.  My dad was a 5th MarDiv mortarman (E-3) on Iwo Jima who was recalled for service in Korea with the 1st Div. in 1950 or early '51, I don't recall exactly which,  Although he won a battlefield commission to 2nd Lt. somewhere between Chosin and Hungnam, he never talked much about it and always said he was proudest of making PFC out of P.I. .  As an inevitable result, I was inculcated with the Jarhead mental attitude from an early age.  If you don't mind me asking, what part of the country are you in? 

         If you're not already familiar with it, I think you'd enjoy reading Robert H. Boatman's article, "The Constitutional Right and Social Obligation to Carry a Gun".  It's on the United States Concealed Carry Association's website at:  http://www.usconcealedcarry.com/public/83print.cfm , if you're interested.

         I try to be very careful when giving advice on guns, gun-ownership & use and self-defense (among other subjects), especially to the uninitiated (trying to assume nothing), and I make a serious effort to put myself in their place, to attempt to understand their needs and concerns, emotional as well as concrete.  I believe that those of us who have lived with and used weapons for so long that it's hard to remember a time when we didn't, need to try to recall what it's like to be just starting out on this particular journey and attempt to understand what a major step it is for an adult who has never been seriously exposed to, much less been immersed in, the culture of the gun and the mindset of personal responsibility for one's own and others' defense.  Many of the folks whom I've introduced to the shooting and hunting arts have taken a giant mental/emotional step back when the concept of taking another human's life, in defense of self or others, is introduced to the equations.  Which Is a good and responsible thing, IMO, but a concept to be thoughtfully considered, an emotional response to be dealt with, and then a state-of-mind to be moved forward from, and built upon.  Some folks, I believe, have been so heavily indoctrinated  against taking such personal responsibility, that the mere thought of doing so makes them feel as if they were contemplating becoming career criminals.  Hence the oft-heard cries of "Vigilante" and "Taking the law into his (or her) own hands" as if it were not, on occasion, a necessary, logical and morally responsible event.   The old "sheep v. sheepdog v. wolf" problem, I guess. 

         Many have also attempted to excuse themselves by arguing belief in the commandment, "Thou shalt not kill."  I keep several Bibles, including a Hebrew/English Torah, to make the point that the correct, and original, commandment reads, "Thou shalt not murder.", as evinced by the original's (as original as we can get, anyway) use of the Hebrew verb "ratsah" (a transliteration, of course). As you probably know, the Hebrew language, like the English, has a number of different verbs for different kinds of killing, but "ratsah" is reserved for the deliberate, unjustifiable, killing of a human being.  Sometimes this makes the difference - although virtually never immediately - and sometimes not.

         I do take great pleasure in seeing the shock on their faces when I show them, by use of precis of a number of SCOTUS' and Federal Courts of Appeals' decisions, all declaring the same principle, that neither the police nor any other agents of government have any legal obligation nor duty to protect any individual citizen(s), and, no duty to enforce court orders of protection or restraint (even if they had the ability to),  from  South v. Maryland [1856],  through  Riss v. City of New York [1968],  to  Carolyn Warren, et al. v. District of Columbia [1981]  and  Town of Castle Rock v. Gonzales [2005] .   Even when they read it for themselves, "in black-and-white", they still look incredulous.  All this and ignoring Natural Law as well.  I don't know the solution to the problem of convincing them, but, although I frequently feel discouraged, I persist in the attempt.  The legend of Sisyphus often comes to mind.  And now we have the degenerate "philosophies" of the current Administration and the events now occurring, with more, and worse, likely to ensue from its policies, and many are still not persuaded to accept responsibility for their own and their families' lives and well-being.

         I do not know what the answers are, and I am more fearful now, for our society, than I have ever been before in my life.  Even though I lean a bit more Libertarian than Conservative, I have, however, been encouraged recently by two books, Dick Morris'  "Catastrophe"  and  Mark Levin's  "Liberty and Tyranny".  I also re-read Robert Ringer's  "Restoring The American Dream", just to feel a bit better.

         Best regards and Semper Fi,

                        the fenian

Hello Doc

It’s good to hear from a Libertarian patriot. I’ve always had fond and honorable feelings for the HM’s in the Corps that always seemed to be where they needed to be to take care of us. You guys are very special to the Marines. Thank you for your service, and your father sounds like the true patriot we all have the greatest respect & admiration for. He will be in our thoughts and our doctrine for eternity...   

I see your point on the mental state of those who have not been raised with a gun in their hand. I grew up on a farm and every free minute we had was used for hunting or fishing.  My sons were also raised this way and both of them received new .22 Marlin’s the day they were born from my dad, then 20 Ga. single shots at age 7, and 12 ga pumps a few short years later. He’s in his 70’s and still runs his gun shop 6 days a week unless hunting season is open.    

  If every American would read we would not be in this predicament. We have become lazy with our Liberty and I, like you, also fear we may have to lose it all before we wake up and take it back. Those that have already lost everything still have a safety net in benefits and I hope they are getting ready for the day there are none. For those who are just hanging on, the safety net may not be there for them and that will cause much pain. I don’t believe the US Government will be able to pull itself out of this one by the green shoot go spend media and the continued class divisions they induce. The world is finished with the dollar and we will no longer be allowed to take their oil with it. It’s ironic that oil producing nations the US Government has attacked over the last 30 years have funded their own destruction. This game is about over.

I listen to Mark Levin on the way home from work every day. He's very well read and waking people up. “The Law” from Bastiat is a very good read. (free on Mises website)

Semper Fi to you Doc!

RockinB--

         (h)OORAH!

Edited to add (I was interrupted):

         I thank you for your thanks and reciprocate the feeling.  You should be aware, however, that HMs frequently think to themselves, while running and dodging in response to "CORPSMAN UP",  that  "I really should stop making these 'house-calls'."  I suspect that you also, whether in the Service or in civilian life, have found yourself running toward the sounds, sights and smells of gunfire, explosions, crashes & rending metal, and/or smoke and fires, watching virtually everyone else running in the opposite direction, and have thought to yourself, "THIS IS A REALLY BAD IDEA !!", and wondered why you kept going (but always did).  It must be a mental defect that some of us were born with.

         I, also, started my son and daughter shooting young, with air rifles & pistols at age 4, .22s at 5 and 6 respectively and center fires from age 8 and on up.  They're 32 and 25 respectively, now, and are "safe" around virtually anything.  I also made my ex-wife and all other members of my household, including my current "Lady of The House" learn gun-safety (and her kids, all the kids friends, various-and-sundry relatives and friends, over the years--even the Liberals), which sometimes included my nieces, nephews, cousins and the kids' friends and cousins who could not seem to get-along with their own parents, at least temporarily.  Sometimes the place felt like a boarding house.

         You're absolutely right about most folks not reading enough.   Or watching and/or listening-to and/or actually reading only  what Bernie Goldberg (a former "dyed-in-the-wool"  Liberal) has lately taken to calling the "LAME-stream media".  I have become a watcher of Fox News, not exclusively, but most of the time, as I usually cannot stomach the propaganda of most of the others.  As to those currently or soon-to-be collecting gov't. benefits,  the gov't. will simply continue to pay them, but will "monytize" the expense and create hyper-inflation, further ruining us ALL, and the least prepared may well be those who have, responsibly, seen to their futures themselves, but with  fiat money-based investments.

         Hope all is as well as it can currently be with you and yours.

         Semper Fi, Gunny

I'm getting the 12 gauge you recommended. My wife has seen me almost kill myself doing electrical work in my house, so she has reason to worry.

Jim--

         As you are probably aware, a firearm is nothing more than a machine for throwing balls, at great speed, to a distance.  It, having no will of its own, anymore than does a car or a chainsaw, merely extends the reach of one's own will.  It enables one to achieve great good or great harm but is still only an inanimate object.  That said, it is natural for one to regard it with a sense of healthy apprehension.  If you and your wife are concerned about having one in your home, this is as it should be.  Proper education and training will make both of you more comfortable with the possession of firearms, but never complacent.

         There are many rules and cautions for the handling of firearms, all good, but they can be distilled down to the three (easier to remember when one is new to the experience) most important:

         1)   ALL GUNS MUST ALWAYS BE CONSIDERED LOADED.  At Least Until YOU Have PERSONALLY Determined        That They Are NOT.  The second part of this rule is necessary because if we were to stop with the first part, we would never be able to clean them, nor to perform other work on them.  It also means that we only pass a gun from one person to another with the action (the "working parts" or the mechanism--i.e.: cylinder, slide or bolt) OPEN.

         2)   NEVER ALLOW A GUN TO POINT AT ANYTHING THAT YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO INSTANTLY DESTROY.  This means being not only constantly aware of what the muzzle is pointing at, but also of what is around and behind that target, and that the target has been clearly identified as a legitimate one.   N.B.: This where the "Familiarity breeds contempt" syndrome, or carelessness, creeps in.  I have read that the group of people who are statistically most likely to forget this rule and blow-up their TV set or wall-mirror is:   Cops!

         3)   NEVER, NEVER ALLOW YOUR FINGER INSIDE THE TRIGGER GUARD UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET.   Obey this one rule and you will never have a "negligent discharge" (There is no such thing as an "accidental discharge" or any other firearm "accident".  There are no physical accidents in the world, only "Negligent Acts" on the part of someone or "Acts of God".  (e.g.:   You have found it absolutely necessary to drive your car somewhere during a hurricane or other severe rain & windstorm weather condition. (A)  While you are driving down the road, a tree falls and lands atop or immediately in front of your car and you hit it = "Act of God".  ---   (B)  While you are driving down the road, a tree falls and lands on the road more than a few dozen yards or so in front of your car and you hit the tree = "Negligent Act". You knew that there was a greatly increased likelihood of this happening but were driving too fast for the conditions.  (I know that this not an absolutely perfect example, but  I'm sure you get the idea.)   In more that 50 years of gun handling, and 40 or so of teaching others to shoot (Including all my household members over the years, including, perhaps most importantly, my children and their friends.--I started teaching my kids from the age of 4, beginning with air rifles and pistols.), I have NEVER seen any gun "JUST GO OFF" of its own volition, not even when (Perish the thought!) dropped.

         The mere handling of a firearm, especially by a responsible but inexperienced person, immediately causes a unique sense of rational apprehension, which is as it should be when holding a device which, if carelessly handled, is capable of great harm, and at a distance, as well.  Consider:  We know that a car, if mis-  or carelessly handled is capable of inflicting far greater carnage than is any gun that one may hold in one's hands.  However, if I handed you my car keys and asked you to drive to a store for something, you would most likely just get in my car and drive, not really worrying about the condition of its tires, brakes, steering gear, etc., nor contemplating all of possibilities of having an "accident";  but, if I handed you my pistol (even though you realize that I would be unlikely to do so if it were loaded), you would experience a heightened sense of concern and be very likely to handle it with great care.  Attitude makes all the difference.

         I believe that you and your wife, whom you should (gently, but firmly) insist accompany you to an NRA basic (at the very least) firearm safety course, will find that the ownership, handling and use of firearms will concentrate your minds as very few other activities in your lives have.  I am sure, from reading your various missives, that you are a mature, responsible, and attentive person, and reason would tend to indicate that your wife is much the same, whether by her natural inclination or as a result of her close association with you.  Therefore, I can confidently predict that the handling of firearms, even unloaded ones, will instantly engender in you both a heightened sense of caution and responsibility, the like of which you have seldom, if ever, experienced before.

         As a side note, I mention that I have always found it more immediately productive to introduce new shooters to the handling, and especially to the firing, of guns, using a .22 rimfire piece, whether rifle or pistol.  Beginners can learn almost all the essentials of shooting better, much more quickly, and at much lower expense, when they are not constantly being startled and intimidated by the much greater recoil, noise and blast of any of the more powerful, larger caliber, centerfire cartridges.  And please don't think that the .22 rimfire is a harmless cartridge, reserved for "plinking", or one just for kids or women.  It has often been stated, and is most likely true, that, aside from war, more people and animals have been killed by the .22 rimfire round than by all other calibers combined.  I shoot my .22s much more often and more extensively than any of my other guns.

         To one who has invested the time and effort to train properly, one's gun(s) can engender in one a sense of confident comfort, much the same as one has from knowing that one's home insurance, first-aid kit(s), alarm system, smoke detectors and fire-extinguishers are all properly in place and functioning correctly.

         Finally, I have found that the moral and responsible man (or woman) who holds the instruments of life and death in his (or her) hands or on the hip, tends greatly to become even more responsible, more polite and much more circumspect regarding any type of disagreement or conflict, than those who, abdicating their responsibilities and their civic duty, choose to rely on blind chance, bluff or cowardice for their survival and that of their loved ones.

         Best regards.

                          the fenian

  IMPORTANT ADDITION:                              

Edited to include:  Every new firearm comes with a MANUAL.  READ IT!!  THREE TIMES!!  They didn't print it just to waste paper or add weight to the carton.  If you buy a used gun, and no manual comes with it, CALL (do not e-mail) the manufacturer or the importer and ask them to MAIL one to you.  They will do so for FREE.  (If you have used the same model gun in the past, you still need the "new" gun's manual anyway---something in the design or features may have changed.)   Do not accept only a "downloaded" electronic version: you NEED a "hard-copy" too.  If only a downloaded version is available, download it and PRINT a "hard-copy".  Keep it with the gun.  Insist that ANYONE who may have access to the gun READ IT TOO.  THREE TIMES!!!   If you should ever sell the gun (Considered to be A Mortal Sin in my circle) give it to the new owner and suggest that he or she READ IT!!!  THREE TIMES!!!  Aside from all the other BAD CONSEQUENCES of NOT reading it, if you ever wind up in a courtroom witness-box, and can't truthfully swear that you read and understood the manual, YOU WILL BE TOAST.  If for any reason, such as the manufacturer or importer having gone out of business, and no manual is readily available, scour the Internet until you find one and buy it.  AND READ IT!!!   THREE TIMES!!!

           Did I mention to READ IT!!!   THREE TIMES!!!    ?    There WILL be a quiz.

Good call Jim.  Always safety first.

Good post fenian. So good, I recommend that Jim and everyone else scroll back up there right now and read it again.

Up. Scroll up now.

TampaGold--

         Thank you for the kind words.  It took the old arthritic digits quite a while to write/type, but if it can encourage folks who are just now considering becoming gun-owners & users to finally "take the plunge" and, further, assists them in doing so responsibly and safely, it is more than worth the effort.  I firmly believe that increasing our numbers enhances the safety of not only ourselves, but of our society at-large.

         Since you liked the post to JimQ, you might also enjoy RockinB's post and my reply.  I mentioned a really good article regarding "mind-set" I wish everyone would read and seriously consider.  It is by Robert H. Boatman, titled "The Constitutional Right and Social Obligation to Carry a Gun", and can be found on the United States Concealed Carry Association's website, at:   http://www.usconcealedcarry.com/public/83print.cfm  .  It's not real new, but it is still extremely relevant.  (Sorry about not being able to make that an actual link, but I'm an old "analogue" guy, and still don't know much about doing stuff on computers.)

Anytime fenian.

I agree with helping the unarmed becoming armed as I too believe that it is our duty as US citizens to be vigilant in protecting ourselves from all enemies, foreign and domestic. We do have that duty to uphold.

I am a freak when it comes to safety so in my mind, I can not stress it enough.

Please be careful when handling a loaded firearm. When handing a firearm to someone else to look at, please unload it first.

NEVER EVER EVER EVER hand a loaded firearm to someone so that they can 'look' at it. That's how sudden death occurs.

Conversely, If someone hands you a firearm to look at, point the weapon away from everyone and clear it to make sure that it is not loaded. If you fail to do so, sudden death may result.

Be vigilant. Be cautious. Be safe.

TampaGold--

         I think that the vast majority of us must be pretty safety-conscious as firearm "accidents", both by rate and by sheer number, are at the lowest since recording started, at least according to the FBI's UCRs. Constant vigilance must remain the necessary state-of-mind, of course.

Agreed. Vigilance is the key to not becoming a victim.

ALWAYS safety first with weapons.

On a side note, I just read this morning that violent crime in the US has gone down while gun ownership has gone up.

One only needs to look at Switzerland's approach to guns to understand why violet crime is virtually non existent there.

TampaGold--

         The reduction in the violent crime rate has, as you say, been on-going  for quite a while..  If you go over the FBI's Uniform Crime Reports, the rate seems to have started declining in about '87 - '88,  and is now at the lowest level since the early '60s.  How ironic that it should start said decline a year or so after the "shall-issue" concealed-carry legislative successes started (With FL being the first , in, IIRC, 1986), and that the rate of decline increased as more and more states passed the "shall-issue" carry-permit laws.  There have been a few, small, upward "blips" over the years, but the trend is still most decidedly downward.

         In his books,  "MORE GUNS, LESS CRIME: Understanding Crime and Gun Control Laws" and "THE BIAS AGAINST GUNS: Why Almost Everything You've Heard About Gun Control Is Wrong", the prominent economist John R. Lott, Jr. details the nature of, and reasons for, this unprecedented decline.  In "BIAS...", in particular, he clearly details how the  1994 "Assault-Weapons (sic.) Ban was not not only utterly unnecessary and based upon fraudulent premises, but was counter-productive, as well.  With the thoroughness of the economist, he details his results county-by-county, as opposed to state-by-state, for even clearer and more reliable results, unlike the vast majority of other such studies.

         Prior to Mr. Lott's books, the study done for the U.S. Dept. of Justice by the National Institute of Justice's James D. Wright and Peter H. Rossi,  "Weapons, Crime, and Violence in America" (Nov. 1981) details the problem and its causes, and points the way toward the solution that was subsequently adopted by FL, and by many other states.  It is still well worth reading, as the anti-gun rights crowd still uses the same myths which this study dispels.

         Professor Gary Kleck (either Univ. of FL or F.S.U., I can't recall which) also did an excellent study showing, among other things, that - and why - criminals decline to attack citizens whom they believe are, or are likely to be, armed.  He details, in convicted felons' own words that, and why, they fear being shot by armed "civilians" far more than by the police.  The title of his study has temporarily escaped my senior brain at this moment, but, if you "Google" his name, you will find it.  Again, as with the Wright-Rossi study, it is not "new", but is still very relevant.

         I should also mention the N.R.A.'s Wayne LaPierre's fine books, "GUNS, CRIME and FREEDOM"; "SHOOTING STRAIGHT: Telling the truth About Guns In America"; "STANDING GUARD"; and "GUNS, FREEDOM and TERRORISM"

         You are absolutely right about the Swiss "phenomenon" and I would add the Israeli as well, where armed civilians (and TEACHERS !!) frequently thwart terrorist attacks.

         Best regards.

JG...noted...thank you.  Transposition....

I went into the hunting section of Wal-Mart on Sunday and the ammo case was empty.

gunshows...

try this...http://www.gunshows-usa.com/connec.htm

Yes, every Wallly world will be outie. (Joe the Plumber has already been there.)

Gunshows are a great place to get whatever you need. Prices tend to be lower too. We have a great gun show at the fairgrounds in Tampa about every few months. It's 8 bucs to get in but you'll save way more than that if you're a buyer.

Jim--

         I don't know where in FL you reside, but if you're in the SE, between say, between Boca Raton and North Miami, the Wall Mart in Cooper City (4700 Flamingo Rd.  954-680-7810) usually has a number of different shotgun loads, esp. 12 ga., in-stock (guns, too!) at pretty good prices, at least good for these days.

         Also the W.M.s on:   1)  Turtle Run, Margate

                                         2)  W Atlantic Blvd. Margate  (corner of W A.B. & US 441)

                                         3)  Atlantic Blvd., Pompano Beach  (corner of A.B. & Powerline Rd.,

         usually have had some ammo, inc'l. 12 ga., in-stock recently.  I've found that early AM, approx.  6 to 8, are likely to be the most productive visits, esp. Saturdays and Sundays.  BTW, if you don't see what you want in the display case, ask the Sporting Goods Manager (NOT some random employee) if he has any "in back" that hasn't made it onto the shelves yet.  Quite frequently he does.

Edited to add:   Don't forget to check out   http://gun-deals.com    and other on-line marketers.   The   www.sportsmansguide.com  is an excellent source of almost all things shooting & hunting, (inc'l web-gear and clothing), as are   www.MidwayUSA.com ,   www.copesdistributing.net ,  www.cheaperthandirt.com ,  http://ammoman.com  and,  http://brownells.com .  Many of these on-line marketers are as cheap, or almost so, as W-M.

         Good luck.

Axel--

         Most decidedly NOT!

Not paranoid…...cautious like the rest of us.

Some might say (not me ß disclaimer of all violence) that it would be very difficult to confiscate millions of Citizens arms with lead coming out the end of them!

Oathkeepers.org is ramping up nationwide with good Constitutional information to try to stop another Katrina confiscation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zztaj2AFiy8

Join in!

RockinB--

         I just tried that YouTube web address, Gunny, and it displayed a "The video you requested is not available" box.

         Is it the same patriotic video that's on their website?

Happy Birthday Jarheads & Doc Fenian!

Happy Veterans Day to all the Vets!

                Doc all is well here, thank you. We don’t get cable or satellite out here so I have not watched cable news in almost 5 years since we escaped from suburbia. I do keep informed as best I can with broadcast & online news, Thomas, and other websites we sift through for tidbits of truth.

You’re always welcome in Paradise Texas when/if TSHTF! Don’t forget your med bag, and I promise as long as you keep us and the livestock guard dogs alive, I will never, never, ever, refer to you as a dicksmith! I assume you have not heard that affectionate terminology for many years so I thought I would cheer you up with fond memories of being called derogatory names by the very men you were patching & plugging!

I do miss the camaraderie of sitting around a helmet fire heating water for C-RAT coffee, telling war stories, cleaning weapons, calling each other names, and getting free medical advice from the corpsman. So hey I’ve got this bump on my……

Semper Fi All!

RockinB--

         Thank you again, Gunny. And Happy Birthday to THE MARINES.

         And I, also, wish a Happy Veterans' Day to all Vets and to each of their families.

         I reciprocate your sentiments and your invitation, should you, for some unfathomable reason, find it necessary to come to S FL. 

         I have to give this area of FL an "8" on the "1-to-10 suckometer-scale", for climate and quite a large portion of the neighbors.  Plus, our current residence is in a condonized "village", is terribly short on storage-space, ridiculously expensive and utterly indefensible and "un-fortifiable".   For that reason, and many others, we will be glad to move (we think) to NW NC.  We're pretty much stuck here until my widowed mother-in-law passes on.  I'm not wishing anything bad on her, but she is 86, after all.  My daughter, who is a surgical technician, lives with my 3-year-old granddaughter in SW VA, and we'd like to be within an hour, or two, of them, at the most.  I need to buy a small, old farm and build my log home (or, as my wife calls my designs, "bunker"), and I need to do it soon, if it's not already too late, as I fear it may well be.  My son is a bush-pilot in Alaska, so he's well-occupied and very happy with that fine State and its folks, which suit his personality to a "T".  If he were still down in this general area, I'd try to get him to be my "advance-man" and agent for the project, as he used to fly out of that part of NC.

         I never really kept-up my meager med-skills, at least not deliberately nor formally, but I did get to "brush-up" a bit helping my daughter study for her surgical school courses down here since she lived with us during that period.  On the other hand, it sometimes surprises me how quickly some things come back to mind when needed.  I do still keep 2 well-stocked M-3 bags, one at home and one in the car, plus a Marine Aviator's first-aid kit for fishing jaunts, etc... No little "ampules", though. 

         I don't even object to "dicksmith", although the affectionately insulting sobriquet in my day was more often "pecker-checker".   On that light note, I will reveal to you the origin of my screen-name.  When I was in my own business, or running one for my former boss, I always had a preference for hiring vets (if they were qualified for the particular job, of course).  Through some perverse alignment of the planets & stars, I once had two ( --  count 'em -- TWO!) Brit ex-"Squaddies' working for me, one as an assistant manager.  And, yeah, I frequently had to translate English, especially Squaddie- and automotive-English to American, for the other guys in the shop.  These two, of course, had several other ex-Squaddie buddies in the area.

         They  quickly declared me a "Radical Irishman" and took to referring to me and, especially when half-in-the-bag, to addressing me, as:  "The (or 'YOU') "XXXX-ing (pick a derogatory verb or adverb), Fxxx-ing, FENIAN bastard -XXXX-....(pick an insulting noun)."  They at least had the good-grace to do this only when other the guys couldn't hear, and not in public, at least when more-or-less sober. ( They were particularly loud and inventive when I would out-shoot them at the range of the  sportsmans' club [in rural CT] I belonged to, especially with my Enfields and another friend's FN-FAL (the FAL was "their" rifle, all of them being of pre-SA-80 vintage).   Of course, they were totally lacking in verbal "thank-yous" for the use of my guns, although they did, at least, buy their own ammo, and helped with the range-police-up and weapons-cleaning chores.)  In "public" they shortened it to simply "The Fenian", and it caught on with a number of other folks, most of whom didn't even know what the word means.  The Squaddies staunchly maintained, as well, that ALL good medic-types are "Poofs" and lousy ones are "Wankers", as well. (If you're not conversant in Squaddie, we would, today, politely translate that as "gays". "Wankers" are those who do that, which all men do, but always lie and claim they don't.)   Since I was stuck with the "Fenian" name anyway, I chose to regard it as the term of honor which it actually is.  In an attempt to be seen as a bit less egotistical than I actually am, I choose to use a lower-case "f".

         Yeah, I just love lancing boils and exploring "bumps" with a scalpel blade & "tweezer"-type forceps, and the unbridled joy of inspecting aromatic feet.  And how about leeches, and the interesting places they can get (in)to??  And those are among the more fondly-remembered complaints and incidences.  Yeah, right.  "Dammit, you gotta take your daily-dailies and drink more water, idiots.  If you don't have ta piss once an hour, you ain't drinkin' enough, dammit." (Always a Two-dammit sentence)  "Let me see that canteen.  Drink it empty -- No sloshing allowed unless it's comin' from your belly!"   "Line-up for Short-Arm inspection!" (And how about the kids who were so young and so "green", they didn't know how to "milk it down" themselves, garnering one, and ONLY ONE  "hands-on" demonstration??)    "RIGHT POOF!" as the Brits would say.  I do on occasion, miss being able to put people (even the bossman) "on profile".  I'm much too mean to ever bother putting anybody "on report"; there are much more craftily nasty means of retribution.

       You left out shaving slivers of C-4 from the Claymores (but not too much!!) to make those fires, and, smoking cigarettes held inside C-rat accessory-pack wrappers (for light-discipline), which wrappers were then saved for use as overtop coverings for mud-and- water-proofing gauze and cloth dressings and, most importantly, but far more depressingly, for occlusive or semi-occlusive dressings for "sucking-chest" wounds (pneumo-thoraxae) and the like.

                                                                                       BUT,

         You are so very, very correct about the camaraderie  --  I have never, in my life since, felt quite that way again, even with the best of friends (and, if truth be told, most family) and do so miss it sometimes, although I can happily do without the downside(s).   I don't believe that those who have not experienced it can ever, ever understand it.

         I heard a story once, that  Lt.Col.Ollie North, while he was working for Fox News, and "imbedded" with some other Jarheads (the story didn't begin with "NO SHIT!", nor did it specify whether this was in Afganistan or Iraq), "his" squad came under fire, and North spontaneously began giving orders, and the squad he was with instantly began obeying them.  The story also did not begin with "Once upon a time..." and I have no idea if it's a Sea-Story or a Fairy-Tale, but it sounds so typically Jarhead that I wouldn't bet money against it being "for real".  So much for "conditioned-reflexes".

         Check out   http://fredsm14stocks.com   and read the articles, etc.  I think you'll enjoy the site, and might even find some encouragement.  I've bought stuff from Fred in the past and he's an honorable guy, if a bit slow-to-ship sometimes, and not nearly as cantankerous as some folks make him out to be. 

         Anyway, it's time for me to pack it in.

         Semper Fi, Gunny.

                          the fenian

Sporting Goods chain mostly in the Northeast.

Jim--

         Thanks,

          but do you mean NE FL, or NE US?

NE US. There are a bunch in the Phila area.

Thanks.

Yes, your semper fi sub-post above.

And yes Dick's Sporting Goods. We also have a few around Tampa Bay.

Thanks, again.

Man you guys up there are way behind. My brother-in-law has been going hunting for several weeks now. Of course, he hunts black powder, rifle and bow. So he is not constrained by just one type of weapon for hunting.

So far he ain't hit nothing either! 8>)

Wisconsin deer hunter--

         I mostly agree with you but wish to add:

                                 1)  Glocks come in .45 ACP, too!

                                 2)  Not just in the winter of '41, but for the entire war on the Eastern Front, the Germans had their beautiful Mausers "freeze-up" even when clean and dry and free of both oil and water/snow (but NOT their MP-40 sub-guns, MG-42 GPMGs, nor their Stgw-44s -- not usually, anyway--as those had sheet-steel receivers)  It turns out that their superbly-made Mauser battle rifles' receivers would literally shrink from the frigid temperatures, and, because their tolerances-specifications were so wonderfully "tight", would bind the bolts. This is one of the German designers'/machinists' few mistakes.  Of course the much more cavalierly made (AHHH! -- The benefits of Socialism) Russian Mosin-Nagant M-91s, M-91/30s, M-38s and M-44s worked just fine in those conditions, just as they were designed to.  I surely do go along with your cleaning and lubricating recommendations, of course.

                                 3)  For your suggested semi-auto carbine requirement, which I agree with, and having personal experience with both of your recommendations, I would have to pick the SKS for the average person.  It's real hard to lose or seriously damage the SKS's  "issue" magazine (not that AK mags are at all flimsy, but they are real heavy) and, with some practice, loading with stripper-clips is just about as fast as AK magazine changes.

         The SKS is also even more robustly-made that the AK, and is also usually a bit more accurate as well.

         Best regards.

 i still might get you yet on your cruise when i hijack our boat.

Argh!....I doubt it ya' scallywagger!

Arrr...shiver me timbers.... i will make you walk the plank....Arrr

How come all I see are a bunch of red Xs?

Try to right click and view picture.

I thought about this when it happened. I guess we will all see where it leads.

A rationale decision would be open carry laws from coast to coast. Men were much more civil with each other when everyone had a sidearm strapped on their leg.

Open Carry is already legal in a lot of places, most folks just do not know it yet.

And it is being debated in others, such as Oklahoma, Texas and Missouri.

In the meantime, if you can get one, get a concealed weapon license and carry every opportunity you can. Me, I never leave home without, although when I start working at Tinker AFB Monday, I will not be able to do so. But it is only five miles from my front door, so I think I'll survive.

http://www.opencarry.org/index.html

Don't forget the duals...Andrew Jackson carried shot in him till he died years later.

"God helps those who help themselves"

  Being self-reliant and independent of money systems when the crap hits the wall will allow people like me to live and you can go have your goverment protect yourself.

Worship? No.

Respect? Yes.

Big difference.

Now lets change 'America' to 'muslims' and I can agree with that.

"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"                                            - George Washington

Tom--

         Historically, Those Who Do NOT "Live by the Gun ('Sword')" HAVE, most definitely, "DIED by the Gun ('Sword')"  one HELLUVA LOT MORE FREQUENTLY than those who DO. ---  And, by the TENS, if not hundreds, OF MILLIONS.   Those poor, foolish souls who allowed themselves to be disarmed, or who were not willing or able to arm themselves, even with "field-expedient" substitutes, have been the architects of their own demise.  I submit to you that neither Human Nature nor the Nature of Governments has changed over the millennia.

         RockinB,   TampaGold    and   God and Gun Worshipper    have it right.  I personally know literally hundreds of Americans who are both gun owners and users, and NOT ONE of them would I consider to be a "gun-worshiper", not even the most avid collectors.  I am sure that you would respond that I, being a long-time gun-owner and user, am blinded to the (supposed) merit of your statements.  

         As it is extremely unlikely that you have exposed yourself and your views to any vast sampling of Americans, and actually listened to their views; consequently, I suspect that your position on the issue is very likely based on "IL-Liberal"Liberal and/or Progressive Utopian propaganda.  I also  strongly suspect that you have never been exposed, personally, to very many gun-owners, at least not enough to constitute a statistically-significant sample, and, that you have long been heavily indoctrinated to view guns, gun-owners and strong Second Amendment supporters, in a decidedly negative light. 

         It is entirely possible that the day may come that you will wish you had a gun, and training by "gun-worshiping America", and find, too late for yourself and your loved ones, that you have dire need of both.  There's an old joke that,

         "A Liberal is a Conservative who has been arrested." and  "A Conservative is a Liberal who has been mugged."

         Hopefully, you will never suffer the perils of being "mugged", either with a small "m" nor a capital "M", before you awaken to the perceived arrogance (at least, so it seems to me) and flaws of your stated view.  It has been my experience that those who promulgate such disparaging blanket sentiments are usually both Elitists and Statists, but perhaps I am mistaken in your case.

         If I have mis-construed your statements, let me know, and I will apologize,, in part or whole, as need be.

         Best regards.

         OORAH, again, Gunny.

                Even though I reckon your first line to be a rather sardonic response.

Yes sir Doc!

I could not pass on a rare chance to post the Marine Rifle Creed.