RAGINGDEBATE.COM NETWORK AFFILIATE - FACILITATING CITIZEN'S POWERED MEDIA RECOMMENDED AFFILIATE SITE: RAGINGDEBATE.COM

25 Comments

Vote FOR or AGAINST comments below.
TheBurningPlatform.com - Freebird
Freebird
  • Vote
  • 7
  • 0

Oooh, good essay.  Thanks for this!  I've been aware of the essential thievery nature of this government for a long time, but hadn't thought to extend it round to Government, per se.  It's a bit like Walter Williams  has been saying for years.  Love when that man sits in for Limbaugh, more intelligent and enjoyable than El Rushbo.

  • Vote
  • 4
  • 0

Very good!  So, how long do we have to wait for the next installment?

 

"For in order to continue in office, any government (not simply a "democratic" government) must have the support of the majority of its subjects."

Is that really true?  It seems to me that a small minority with weapons can impose its will on the majority without guns. Look at what occurred in Iran this past summer.

TheBurningPlatform.com - Frogman
Frogman
  • Vote
  • 2
  • 0

I remember reading something about the general timelines of governments, that each type had a characteristic lifespan.  Despotic regimes had the shortest, around 40–60 years if I remember right.  Since they never gain support (or at least passivity / acceptance) of the majority, they tend to die / morph the earliest.

Guns can get you power, and succeed at imposing it for a while. 

  • Vote
  • 3
  • 0

Prior to 1788, no "State" had ever been voluntarily constructed by peaceful means, and I agree with the author that the genesis of all States before this one was a violent imposition by the few over the many.  But we did what had never been done, and set up a new Nation-State, fundamentally different from that imposed by the Revolution, by peaceful means.  I disagree with the author in that I believe it is possible to do that move one better.

The nature of the Constitution remained close to the traditional characteristic of States:  the power to tax the people directly, even unfairly, was retained and backed by the sword.  Although the "exclusive use of violence" was not at first thought to be in the power of the central government, that outcome was inherent to the Constitution.  Consider the Whisky Tax and the ensuing Whisky Rebellion.  But the United States still was unique on the planet and in history in its decentralization of that taxing power and the sword; and the internal strength of many of its component States kept at bay the typical degradation into Conquest of its own people by the Nation.

Eventually, that American Experiment failed to retain the support of a very substantial portion of the population, necessitating the Conquest of the Southern States in order to retain the form of Union.  However, the character of the Union was forever altered by the event.  Decentralized or "Federal" government was ended, and after 150 years of the new system we are close to making the Death Run typical of all governments.

No voluntary association that retained the essence of thievery, the "political means" the author discusses that legitimates the theft of some people's property by the State, has ever endured beyond 200 years, if that much.  Whether a voluntary association that avoids that theft, that derives its revenue entirely by free exchange (as in user fees, as opposed to taxes), could ever be instituted is an open question.

  • Vote
  • 3
  • 0

 This is great stuff.  Rothbard/Oppenheimer lays out very clearly the true nature of the "political" realm, that it is essentially a Mafia that has managed through ideological brainwashing to secure the 'consent' of the governed.  "The governed" are merely the productive class whose wealth is confiscated for redistribution by the political class.  I would include finance in the political class.  

It is true that a complex economy requires financial intermediaries (i.e. bankers) to invest some people's savings into the productive ventures of others but in our monetary system where bankers actually create the money they 'lend' this virtuous intermediary function has been corrupted.  Even within this corrupted financial system most small scale bankers still work as honest intermediaries so I don't want to tar all bankers with the same brush.  But banking has been captured by big time crooks who dominate the system and use their position to essentially 'tax' the monetary system to generate obscene gains for themselves.

My girlfriend tells me of a show she saw that we call "the Swedish experiment".  It was done with rats.  The setup was that food was placed across a body of water with all the rats on one side so rats had to swim across to get the food.  There was no place to stand where the food was so rats had to carry it back to eat it.  It very soon emerged that some rats did all the swimming and bringing food back while other rats merely waited for the food to be delivered to them.  So we have a productive class of food gatherers and a political class of food appropriators.  After these classes had been firmly established the experimenters removed all the political class rats leaving only the producers in the experiment.  Almost immediately some of the formerly productive took on the role of the political and simply waited for the food to be delivered to them.

Social nature is different than individual psychological nature.  Rats, and humans, behave one way on their own and another way in groups.  Groups seem to almost automatically organize themselves according to a hierarchy.  

In his book, "Global Brain", Howard Bloom describes a colony of lobsters in which the alpha male gets all the breeding rights and first access to food and other resources.  When the alpha male is supplanted by a more dominant rival a new "top lobster" emerges.  When he achieves top lobster status a lobster undergoes physiological changes.  A rush of serotonin boosts his confidence and other 'ruling features' so significantly that he essentially has a "different brain".  His displaced rival is flooded with octopamine and slinks away in dejection.  These hormonal changes generate "dominance hierarchies, pecking orders in which each animal knows who's on top, who is not, and who is in between."(p.33)  Bloom lays out the evolutionary trail via which we have inherited these social traits.  So the whole political vs productive class hierarchy is a product of our natural evolution.

I argue that human spiritual evolution is the process by which we learn to deliberately replace the impulses and predispositions of our natural animal nature with a morally superior motivational structure.  So I think the whole "dominance hierarchy/top lobster" business belongs to the animal nature that we are trying to evolve beyond.  Spiritual evolution is an individual process by which we knowingly and deliberately choose to make of ourselves something better than the way we found ourselves to be.  So a spiritually evolved "leader" does not use that dominant position to extract material benefits for him/her self.  He/she uses it to try to make things work better for the group, and to encourage spiritual advancement among his/her group.  Jesus, for e.g., said that the true leader is the one who serves the best, not the one who receives the best service.  

I argue that we are born animals and we choose to become "humans", self-made higher beings.  There is no personal "credit" in simply being as you were born and raised to be.  That is like a Corvette taking credit for not being a Pinto.  Both cars are products of somebody else's making.  Neither one did anything to make itself what it is even though one is clearly "better" than the other.  Many or most people never do become humans.  They live and die as natural animals.  They never take the initiative to make themselves better than they found themselves.  They spend their effort trying to climb the animal food chain rather than trying to evolve themselves beyond it.  I think that's what Jesus' whole "sheep and goats" lecturing is about.

In my view the state as Rothbard/Oppenheimer describes it is a spiritually unevolved animal hierarchy.  Our 'leaders' are just the meanest monkeys who get what they want by pandering, the threat of force, and whatever else works for them.  They rule for their personal gain (both hormonally--the top lobster serotonin buzz and most favored status--and the more obvious material benefits), not for the good of 'the people'.  The people are merely the producers who make all the goods that the leaders want to appropriate.  So "politics" is the institution in which people compete for top lobster status.  It is an animal social structure, a product of natural evolution.  

Only very rarely when we get a true leader does politics even achieve the status of a truly "human" institution.  The founding of the US is probably one of those rare occasions.  The United States of America may be the first, and may be the only, human nation ever instituted on this planet of apes.  But in recent decades the US is backsliding down the evolutionary trail and reverting to an animal political dominance hierarchy run by banksters and the various other corporate oligarchs who have managed to climb to the top of the food chain.  A light emerged out of the mists of history and the animals tried to snuff it out because they preferred to live in the darkness.  Unless the humans redouble their efforts to shine the light, the animals will win.  Which side are we on?

  • Vote
  • 1
  • 0

 p.s.  if you can't wait to read the rest of Rothbard's piece Google 'the anatomy of the state' and it will take you to the lewrockwell site that has the entire text.  For some reason this TBP window won't accept the link.

  • Vote
  • 1
  • 0

Anyone wanting to go directly to the whole essay need only click on the title of this article or on the essay's title.  Both are active links to the whole essay.

I'll probably post Part 2 tomorrow if it appears discussion is finished on this part.

  • Vote
  • 1
  • 0

Wow, derryl, Outstanding!  This is the kind of contributory post an writer lives for:  you grasped the article and then did it one better. 

"My girlfriend tells me of a show she saw that we call "the Swedish experiment".  It was done with rats.  The setup was that food was placed across a body of water with all the rats on one side so rats had to swim across to get the food.  There was no place to stand where the food was so rats had to carry it back to eat it.  It very soon emerged that some rats did all the swimming and bringing food back while other rats merely waited for the food to be delivered to them.  So we have a productive class of food gatherers and a political class of food appropriators.  After these classes had been firmly established the experimenters removed all the political class rats leaving only the producers in the experiment.  Almost immediately some of the formerly productive took on the role of the political and simply waited for the food to be delivered to them.

Social nature is different than individual psychological nature.  Rats, and humans, behave one way on their own and another way in groups.  Groups seem to almost automatically organize themselves according to a hierarchy."

I had never heard of the "Swedish experiment."  Your post is going to make me think hard before I reply in substance, because the implications for establishing a non-thieving government are enormous.

  • Vote
  • 2
  • 0

derryl:

This is one of the best essays I've seen on this topic.  Besides being well-written, with good flow and clear connections, the post reveals that this is a topic that ranks as more basic than any economic or political discussion.  I am truly impressed and grateful that you took the time to write it.  Of course, I am biased, since your post agrees with my own view. 

 

"I argue that human spiritual evolution is the process by which we learn to deliberately replace the impulses and predispositions of our natural animal nature with a morally superior motivational structure.  So I think the whole "dominance hierarchy/top lobster" business belongs to the animal nature that we are trying to evolve beyond. ...

"I argue that we are born animals and we choose to become "humans", self-made higher beings. ...In my view the state as Rothbard/Oppenheimer describes it is a spiritually unevolved animal hierarchy. ...It is an animal social structure, a product of natural evolution.  

Only very rarely when we get a true leader does politics even achieve the status of a truly "human" institution.  The founding of the US is probably one of those rare occasions.  The United States of America may be the first, and may be the only, human nation ever instituted on this planet of apes.  But in recent decades the US is backsliding down the evolutionary trail and reverting to an animal political dominance hierarchy run by banksters and the various other corporate oligarchs who have managed to climb to the top of the food chain.  A light emerged out of the mists of history and the animals tried to snuff it out because they preferred to live in the darkness.  Unless the humans redouble their efforts to shine the light, the animals will win.  Which side are we on?"

 

Beat me to the punch, you did!  Bully for you, and good for us.  Great summary of where these articles were intended to lead.

  • Vote
  • 2
  • 0

Synposis:

What the State is Not:

Main point: "We are the governed," not "We are the government."  The state is bad.

What the State is:

I found myself in opposition to this point about the state just being an organization of the political means.  I think the state is often a seamless blend for both economic means and political means.  Somehow Rothbard talks around or ignores the idea of competition for limited resources.  The state, (political means) is often used to gain the territory and control of these resources, so that (economic means) can then be employed.  Examples, United Fruit Company, oil in the Middle East, Manifest Destiny, etc.  There are too many examples to mention here.  In my opinion, the military then becomes a pre-requisite for the capitalism following behind it.

How the State Preserves Itself:  Main point: Academia is in cahoots with the ruling elite.  Co-opting a portion of the population is a requirement for the state to survive.

An excellent read.  Thank you.

 

  • Vote
  • 2
  • 0

Hans, the point about land / resources being gained FIRST by the State, then let to the people, is true sometimes, certainly in the American West.  Does the Fruit company you mention have to do with the annexation of Hawaii?  But the point is valid, whether it is always true or not.  And it is not, since many States arose where the economic exploitation was already in full swing.

Clearly then, the State would need a military to gain the land / resources, perhaps the same military it used to establish itself as "The State" to begin with.  But the State, unless it is Socialist, does no producing.  The State engages in no capitalism, it just takes the fruits of trading.  the State doens't build cars in a capitalist system, only in a Socialist system.  But again, your point is valid:  in at least SOME States, the political means and the economic means are intertwined.

Where I disagree with the author is, like you, on the rather sweeping definitions of State that are demonstrably TOO sweeping.  The essential nature of the State as a thief of its citizens' produce, however, seems to have no exceptions in the real world.

Yet.

TheBurningPlatform.com - Slowsmile
Slowsmile
  • Vote
  • 0
  • 0

TLaCour...Wonderful article for sure. I have read many of Rothbard's essays and books and would heartily recommend The Case Against the Fed as one of Rothbard's most revealing books. The concept of government, I believe, can never be accurately defined because it's meaning or definition never stands still, always morphing and changing in step with where the power lies at any point in time. This is the main problem with modern democracy now. Look at the difference between America the Republic of the Revolution and America today whose modern government entity seems to have become so fuzzily and inaccurately associated with such a strange form of democracy. Yes, of course, but a democracy for who ? Freedoms for who ? The meanings of the latter have all been subtley transferred to other areas or power bases within the government/financial sectors and have been equally and ruthlessly subtracted from the ordinary citizen's lifestyle.

There are several other books worth a read. "The Creature from Jekyll Island" by E Griffin is damning book indeed, but my favourite still remains as "Super Imperialism: The Economic Strategy of American Empire" by M Hudson. This is a most astonishing book which reveals the insidious foreign control which is exerted by American "owned" entites such as the CIA, IMF, WTO etc that all plainly act as the ruthless external tentacles of American power and economic control abroad via the quiet, dirty rules of the Washington Consensus. All are well worth a read.

Leave a Comment
*If your comment does not appear after clicking submit, try clicking submit again (you do not need to retype your comment).